Talk:Sakura Moon Empire

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Please keep in mind that Sakura Moon is not a kingdom, nor a legal amtgard chapter.

Sakura Moon Representatives; if you continue to edit this page with out discussion it will be locked.

-Linden


65.32.244.57; Is it not in fact true that your group uses a mash up of our rulebooks to play by? Are you not aware that this practice is not only unfortunate but in violation of copyright law?

-Linden

Contention

It would be fair to put one of those "contents of this article are in dispute" tag on this article like Wikipedia does. I think the hardest part about resolving the dispute is that most of the Sakura Moon people, particularly the leadership, don't seem willing to step forward and engage in discussion. Maybe they could submit an alternate entry for the Shogunate. -Maurdr

-Glen

I used to be in the SMS i was a leader but after i posted the make a page article they have seemed rather unhappy with me. Currently i belong to no group but i do plan on joining the kingdom of neverwinter. I find the current leaders of the SMS to be friends, but i will not play amtgard with them again until a certain person has resigned his position of power. He knows who im talking to.

Updated material was tampered with

Roger; the earlier edit of Make a page actually had relevant information on it, the one that was transfered to the SMS page appears to be tampered with.

-Linden


i am maurdr i created the make a page i didnt know how to create one so i guessed if you would like some information for the sakura moon shogunate page let me know and i can give you some

Thank you Maurdr. We would like some more information on SMS; Park names, locations, Leadership, traditions. Examples of weapons. Anything that would give us a more clear picture on the group. -Linden



ok the group is based off of the oriental leadership where you have a shogun his prime minister then retainees gaku and other things. the names are as follows for lowry park sosei bonzai, the 2 in orlando redmangetsu, and azure gengetsu, brooksville the rosuto woood, westpalm beach the crushing tide. the weapons they favor are flat blades theyre made of carbon golf shafts, pipe foam, camping foam, duck tape, and the nickle on top on the carbon, there are a few archers, spearmen, and sword and shield wielders. most of the players have chosen the class scout, or warrior. in the lowry park group there are 2 houses one made up of 10 pirates, the other of an old group that couldnt make it anymore.also the leader is a bit corrupt in his head he sells swords from a company named the sleeping samurai the go to conventions over florida selling them for around 30 dollars. also at the last feast he was charging people to play. i need to log off for a class but ill be on later to update more.-maurdr


i recreated the make a page there is more information on there if you could name it correctly and lock it so the leader os SMS doesnt reedit it. if i could be allowed to edit it still though.-maurdr

Stuff taken from the "Sword Fight Club Forums" via Lurker

Ok basic RPG idea. A player starts with base stats based on class. There are 12 classes in amtgard, 2 of which you have to be knighted for. Knighting is not easy and therefore I will discuss that really only if asked.

In our group we only accept 4. Those are Warrior (samurai), Assassin, (Shinobe), Scout (Sekkou), Barbarian (Jomon).

Samurai are basic front line fighters. Using shields, javelins, multiple weapons, polearms of different sorts, armor and they most have lives.

Shinobe are basically rogues whom fight with limited weapons like one long sword one short, etc. They have only 3 lives to start and eventually have limited magic abilitys, a few more lives and limited armour.

Sekkou are basically warrior-light. Instead of employing larger shields and heavy armor they use recurve bow giving them an effective range. They work well with their brothers the Samurai. In intent they are basically around to take out magic users and Shinobe.

Jomon are Samurai that have slightly different stats and, as a rule, don't act civilized. They have less lives, less armour and a minor amount of magic. AND I hate them.

We have a few other classes (RD has both a Druid and a healer) but its not worth going into.

As for the levels: Every 12 credits (1 point for showing up and a half point if you come out a second time - thusly we pack out 2 days a week), we get a new level. The Max levels in Amtgard are 6. At that point you've played so freakin long in one class you often (not always) pick a different class OR you do what I do. Stay samurai*.

Each time you level up, you have to pass a guild test that tells the Admin if your ready for new abilitys and if you know about OTHER character types and how to combat them, etc. Assuming you pass, which isn't hard, you can use your new stats.

The details: by second level you MUST be in garb. No garb, no level. You don't have to pick a class until you have 12 credits for any given class, though many pick long before that.

On a personal note; I love the class system. I like the idea of faternal order (guilds) and seniority.


  • technically I have 6 levels in Warrior, 4 in scout and 6 in monk but I play Samurai as a rule.

anyway; there it is from our other discussion.

Proposed new page for SMS

a Boffer Group, located in Central Flordia.

Heraldry

History

The Sakura Moon Shoganuate is a group founded by a former Amtgarder. They exist in central Florida right in the midst of the Kingdom of Neverwinter. They have yet to sign a contract with the BLBoD, or any other group though some of their members have expressed interest in doing so on E-Sam.

Sakura moon operates in a very "Asian" theme atmosphere. Their parks, garb, officers, and even the classes that they play are usually inspired by the orient and related areas.

Unfortunately, some of the leadership of Sakura Moon have chosen to change the rulebook, using a mash up of 6.0 and 7.0.

It has been reported by members of SMS on Esam that they are currently seeking a contract, have signed waivers and are updating their weapons so that they are all legal under our 7.0 standards.

Parks

And possibly two others in Tampa and Brooksville

Contacts and Directions

Myspace profile page

Rights to Edit

Category : Florida Category : Other LARPS

Linden, with all due respect, I would like to know why someone who has left SMS is supposedly allowed to edit the page while other SMS members are not given that right? You have quoted yourself on your wiki page saying:

"I edit the Wiki a lot, mostly with information that I find on the internet through kingdom sites and the ORK, and when I get bored of updating my Kingdom I go and update others. If I have edited your page and you don't like it, please feel free to change it, your wiki page belongs to you and you should control what it says." Also feel free to email me if you need any help"

It seems to me that if this were to be locked, someone who has more authority within SMS should have a say on what is posted, as opposed to someone who isn't even a current member in the group.

Again I'm sorry if I come off harsh, but it just seems rather unjustified. I would also like to say that this is my personal view and I, in no way, represent the view of any other members of SMS. I'm just a fairly new member to the group who has befriended these people and trying to defend their rights to this page. Lastly Linden, I would like to apologize for editing the information about the rulebook mash up earlier on the page. It just seemed like a negative comment and I thought I was within my right to change it since this is a wiki page, but I do realize I should have discussed it first and came to this decision rather hastily. So for that I apologize. Thank you very much for your time.

-65.32.244.57

Response to "Rights to edit"

65.32.244.57; I understand your concern about what appears to be favoritism. However, Maurdr is just like you not allowed to edit the main SMS article. At this time due to excessive editing with out discussion ( not just you, the page was edited several times) the page is locked. I recently updated the page with a little bit more information, I did so with the approval of the wiki uber admin Roger after I had opened the he changes for discussion (see above).

If there is anything that you disagree with, or would just like changed (syntax, word use, content, ect) , please feel free to site it and with discussion slowly change the page. It's just not okay for people to take down the information already present and replace it with posts about "Drama". This is an information source, and should not be biased (If we can help it).

So please 65.32.244.57, what would you like to change?

Linden 08:14, 30 October 2007 (EDT)


very good point i have not edited this site since it has been locked and i dont plan to.-maurdr

Locations, Contacts

We still need locations and contacts for each of the groups. What park do they play in? On what day, at what Time?

Linden 17:52, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

Rights to Edit: Requests

Thank you very much for listening Linden. I kinda thought that Maurdr wasn't able to edit the page on his own, but since he said, "i recreated the make a page there is more information on there if you could name it correctly and lock it so the leader os SMS doesnt reedit it. if i could be allowed to edit it still though.-maurdr" I thought that maybe he did have that ability.

Anyways that is beside the point, like I said before I'm not part of the SMS leadership, in fact im in the lowest of the low, but as far as I know, most of us are not willing to post the location of our parks and the times we meet. However I did look around at other kingdoms on the wiki and saw that this was common practice. It seems that this allows for people to "spy" on other groups in preparation for battle, and I was wondering if there was any precedents in place to either prevent or discourage this act, or if it is fact common practice. As most members of the SMS have recently admitted, we are well aware that we are not Amtgard legal (as of yet), so how the act of "spying" is treated within Amtgard is something that at least I am not aware of. If we could keep that information private that would alieviate some of the drama I believe, but I realize alot of discussion would probably be needed if this were to happen at all. I'm just working with what I got.

Secondly, though I can't speak for other groups, I know that my group within the Shogunate does not use a "mash up" of 6 and 7. We use 7.0 and just rename some of the classes, but there abilities and all other aspects of the class are unchanged. What we don't implement from the rules is that we still use some of those slimmer boffers that aren't legal by Amtgard standards (though changes are in place to do away with those weapons and switch to Amtgard legal boffers...at least in my group), but that seems to be the only rule we are failing to abide by. If someone can put forth evidence that we use rules from 6.0 only, then I will stop my request here, but if no credible evidence is found, can we please delete the line that states we use a rulebook mash up, or at least say we are attempting or in the process of conforming to 7.0 standards?

Thanks again for your time reading my requests. I hope we get to play with you all soon...legally :)

-65.32.244.57

Response

If I may jump in here for a moment in regards to time, location, and raids from other parks; I believe part of the problem here may be a misunderstanding as to what exactly a "raid" means to the general Amtgard world. The intent behind a raid isn't to "invade," "destroy," or in any other way disrupt another park. It's merely a way for different groups that may not regularly interact to get together and play for a day; it's more about bragging rights ("Yay, we came in and totally whooped them at their home park" or "Yeah, we stopped them from raiding our park"). In that sense, there's no necessity for "spying" as you seem to intend it here. We're not out to be subversive and undermine other parks.

I have been following the discussions regarding the SMS here and on E-Sam, so I don't want you to think I'm just shooting in the dark here. I merely want to help there to be an understanding as what it means to be a part of the Amtgard world. For the majority of us, the more people we get to play with, the better. If this includes "raiding" one park with another, it's just that many more different people to interact with. I understand from what I've read that it seems some of the SMS parks have had issues with Amtgarders who have come in and been disruptive; if this is indeed accurate, please try to understand that the entire Amtgard world does not view new parks in the same vein. We would rather be welcoming.

To put it in simplest terms; the more people we have to hit with foam, the better it is for everyone. :) There really is no need for such secrecy in regards to meeting locations and times.

Itsari 10:36, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Response to Request

Thank you for getting back 65.32.244.57;

I had not realized that there were so many small differences among the chapters affiliated with Sakura Moon. I have heard mention of five chapters so far and one which is now defunct.

Yes, it is common practice to list meeting dates and times along with locations. SMS being unwilling to put forth that information is very alien to Amtgard at large. And in some ways creates more distrust. If you look at the Player Entry Template you'll see that Contacts and Directions are a part of the basic info we list here. In general amtgarders want others to come to their parks; visit, raid, quest, whatever. One of our major tenants is that Amtgard is open to all people, banning is rare and usually a last resort in response to violence or violation of Mundane law.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "Spying". Most places have an open door policy. We have "wars", lots of them, but they are organized as events where everyone knows about them and is invited to participate or cheer from the sidelines. There is Harvest War, Winter War, Spring War, Banner War, as well as other Events that are held annually. It's more like a Challenge and then a battle rather than a "Sneak Attack".

Its good to know that you guys are making the transition. It's a hard thing wherever you are. When 6.0 was updated it was the first time I had ever seen a rules up date, and I had been playing for about 8 years. All the things I had memorized I had to relearn. I still carry around a rulebook in a pouch on my belt, just in case I forget something.

Since your group plays with the 7.0 rule book exclusively we can add that proviso to the statement. I had originally included it because I read about the rewrites that Jarrod was doing on the SMS Myspace page. He said that he had "Finished rewriting the Rules from the updates released at Clan." using clarifications from 6.0. Until I can talk to reps from each group, and confirm that they are moving toward 7.2 compliance I won't be able to remove it entirely. He also said that some classes where not allowed within his chapter, but that Red Dawn had Druids and Healers.

What group do you belong to, so that I can add which chapter is working toward getting legal? Also, may I know your name so I stop referring to you by you IP address?

Linden 10:32, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Clarification About Classes

Though the statement about class acceptance implies otherwise, there are no actual restrictions on class (I am uncertain as to whether this a policy change or a mispeech). I myself play a Healer.

Jhazared 6:27, 4 November 2007

Response to Clarifications

Thank you, I will add your statement to the front page. What chapter of the shogunate do you play in?

On a separate note, why did you early add the Shogunate to the Kingdom page?

Linden 15:33, 4 November 2007 (EST)

Response to the Above

Your addition is slightly misleading, and grammatically incorrect. I suggest the following: "While statements have been issued by one of the Shogunate leaders to the contrary, there are no direct limitations on classes, though some are discouraged."

Prior additions to the Kingdom page were made because I had believed, at the time, that SMS was a proper (but new) Kingdom, and merely hadn't yet been added.

I am a member of Red Mangetsu.

Jhazared 19:07, 4 November 2007

Edit added

I agree that your phrasing is much stronger and have changed the SMS page. Unfortunately SMS is not a new kingdom hence my removal of the information from the page.

Please feel free to add information to the Red Mangetsu page. It is terribly bare at the moment.

Linden 18:13, 4 November 2007 (EST)

Renamings

Official:

Warrior=Samurai, Assassin=Shinobe, Scout=Sekkou, Barbarian=Jomon.

Unofficial/Suggested:

Druid=Kannushi, Healer=Ika, Monk=Shukke, Archer=Shashu, Bard=Myujishan, Wizard=Uizaado Paladin=Gikyounoshi, Anti-Paladin=Akubushi, Peasant=Noufu, Monster=Yokai, Raider=Shinyuusha

Linden: Does your desire to fill out articles on what is strictly another LARP indicate that you expect SMS to join Amtgard soon?

Jhazared 20:38, 4 November 2007

Jhazared; Information, SMS status

I'm a historian. I love to collect information about all the things I'm passionate about; Amtgard is one of those things. So, I help Roger with his Amtwiki project. Media Wiki is a new format for us, and we are still transferring pages by hand.

http://agh2o.org/amtwiki/index.php/HomePage

So I try to record all information about groups within amtgard and those that have come from it. In Ten to 15 years the old guard will start to die off and our oral traditions will go with them.

As to weather SMS will become an Amtgard group; that is up to each of the individual chapters, the Burning Lands Board of Directors and Kurse. Each chapter can chose to sign a contract and join up, or not. I'm in no position of authority that would have any special knowledge on the subject.

Linden 20:36, 4 November 2007 (EST)

To Linden

I don't know who else is watching this page, but you seem to be the only one actively, so I apologize for my forwardness.

I am the park leader for Red Mangetsu. If you have any particular questions regarding SMS other than what is already known that we can't answer, I will be happy to help to the best of my abilities. As for the page on my park, I will try to maintain it, however it's a bit difficult for me as I don't know what should be posted there in regards to what should be on the amtwiki and what I cannot say. If you'd like to contact me personally for more in-depth discussion I would be happy to provide a medium, such as e-mail. Just let me know what medium you would prefer.

Thank you for being so understanding.

-Shura 71.51.93.1 13:13, 13 November 2007 (EST)

Shura

I would be most grateful for you input your park's page, and any other information you would like to add. Some time this afternoon I will add the Place Template to each of the chapter pages, and then we can fill it in from there.

As for what you can say and can't our rules are generally that you should initiate discussion or give a reason if you want to remove information from a page, but you may add as you like so long as the information is not derogatory to other parties. The members of your chapters are also welcome to create personal pages, here is Michael Hammer of God as an example.

Please let me know if you need any assistance. I'll be glad to help. Linden 14:22, 13 November 2007 (EST)

Unfortunately...

I'm sure you know that the SMS is very much not inclined to share information about a lot of things. Everyone within has been informed to not disclose anything regarding the shogunate. The only people with us who should be participating here on the Amtwiki at all are those who hold positions, I'm sorry to say.

These things said, I myself am (sadly) not inclined to contribute additional information. However, I can relate to the search for truth/knowledge, so I will try to help if there is something specific that someone wants to know and that I am allowed to say. All I can do for now is correct false information, do my best to answer questions, and keep things orderly.

On a side note, in regards to classes, I know it to be fact that there are no limitations on classes. We have one monk and two archers, we had a healer, and I know of at least one more healer in the SMS. I've also heard of bards in the SMS, though whether or not they still play, I don't know for sure. Archers are also among the "encouraged" classes and are called Kyudo.

Shura 71.51.93.1 15:13, 13 November 2007 (EST)

I'd like to clear up a few spelling issues on the classes.

Warrior=Samurai

Scout=Seiko

Assassin=Shinobi

Archer=Kyudo

Barbarian, Monk, Healer, Wizard, and all other classes have no known name changes.

At my clan, Sozei Bonzai, rulebook 7.2 is in full effect.

The hybrid boffers we currently use are indeed on their way out, by the time are officially free-hold status, we should be fully converted over to the standard round boffer, or some equivalent hybrid of the flat blade.


Alot has happened since i left the group then i see because when i left about a month ago nothing had changed no newer boffers had been made, and Bows were not being used in any games. -Maurdr

New Edits

However, all of their chapters which are active on Myspace use the word "amtgard" to describe themselves especially Satsubatsu Gumi of West Palm Beach, FL.

The above phase was removed by an SMS Official with out comment, or reasoning even though to my knowledge it remains true. --Linden 19:20, 5 February 2008 (EST)

The comment was removed because nowhere on Satsubatsu's myspace page was the word "Amtgard" ever used. However, our youtube videos were tagged as such, which they no longer are. We have absolutely no affiliation with Amtgard whatsoever.

Correction

Hey Linden, it's me mister IP again :). I was wondering if you could correct the spelling of the name of my group "Tetsu Bonzai". Small change, but I'd really appreciate it.

No worries; I'll be glad to fix it. =) --Linden 07:17, 6 February 2008 (EST)

posted on myspace from jared

this was posted from jared on the SME page


Today, no less than a third of the peoples of SKE succeeded from the empire. With all our growth there was a cancer. The person I trusted most of our clans has betrayed us. He did it with intention caused by his men, the mob rule of some who think they can do better in amtgard. That said, the parting of our branch has been done and now I have no other choice but to ask each one of you remaining to band together in this time of mourning.

The rumors were true and a plot was hatched from the inside. We have lost more than our fair share to the likes of NW and the so-called deplomacy of that game. For a long time, everyone, not aside with amtgard has felt like the rules and restrictions of that game were holding us back. The gov system that they inflict on us and the stupid over-regulation of the game restricted its fun and the temptation of the grass being greener on the other side was strong enough that it took from us our largest group.

I am sad to ask this of you, but now in our time of need, I ask that if you have any of the members of Tusto Bonzi on your clan pages that they be removed. This is not just a percaution for the sake of the empire but also because they, in their rebellion, have shown the Amtgard BOAD all our weaknesses and are now preparing a sease and desist statement so that we don't use the word amtgard. What I can tell you is that its a free game and the rules are free and published so they dont' have much of a case, excepting that if you personal page says the word "Amtgard" and/or your clan page says it, they may well come after you.

Why would we want to be involved with people who would stifel us, take a third of our empire and then try to force us not to play? The answer is:

WE WONT be involved.

Which means from THIS point on, The SME is now its own entity. EVERYONE in it will be playing by new rules in the following weeks. I have already been working on our rulebook and I will be releasing it to you.

I ask that everyone attend their clan in the following weeks for the restructuring. ______________________________

The following items are to be done:

EVERY SINGLE contact that any of our regents have are to be called and asked to attend the field so that the Diamyo of that field can tell them whats happening. This is a must-do. Not everyone that plays with us is on our myspace and therefore everyone needs to know. Please call all contacts and ask them to attend your field. I will expect either the Diamyo of that field to contact me as of sunday OR the regent to do the same.

ALL players are to re-establish their retainership. I want that updated list ASAP so we know exactly what damage has been done. This will be turned in by the end of the week. Email me if you have any issues.

PLEASE keep your chin up, this game has allowed all of us to be friends and I want us to stand together instead of falling apart in this time of need. Please keep all the standing clans in your thoughts and lets pull through this. ______________________________

Upcoming events:

One of the changes is that the SME will now be split down into clans. Each clan will be able to build its own shogunate around it. All any clan has to do to earn the shogunate name is spawn two other clans. These clans will not war with each other but raid other clans for flags. To that note, I will be asking that each current clan and upcoming clans buy a flag which I will make availble to you in a month. These flags are to be carried to each practice because we will be turning florida into a game of Risk. This is going to be called the "5 month war". For 5 months each clan can attack any other clan (excepting groups that have left as they no longer recognize your legitemacy as players) for best 2 out of 3 games. The games will be single life elimination and at the end a flag will be taken if one party wins at least twice. The losing park then becomes the winning sides territory for the next remaining months until the game is over. At the end, the 6th month, all the clans will come together for a massive feast that will be held in honor of the ultiment winner of the 5 month war.

another change is an updating to the "classes". This will be released with the rulebook but expect some large things and some small things. Expect alot of the things you already do to become legit. _____________________________

Anyway, thats all from me on this sad day.

Please keep all the clans in your mind as you confront the next couple of days. Im sure the rumor factory will spill out much in the way lies and deceit but its important that you keep your head clear. Everyone needs your loyalty right now. Please band together and keep your chins up.

A very sad emperor

Miyamoto Yoshindo.

FROM AN SME LEADER

I am in a leadership position within the SME. I'm going to put my two cents in and try to clear the air, although I feel this effort will be fruitless. I am the Daimyo of a clan and I was brought into the game towards the time where the leadership decided not to pursue a contract with Amtgard. I speak with all of the leaders of all of the clans and our Emperor, so I'm speaking from a position of knowledge and communication.

First of all, on the policy of Isolationism. We were trying to integrate into Amtgard to become more competitive and have a larger group of opponents. Because of disagreements between our leadership and Amtgard's, the integration never happened. We can debate all day long on the reasoning for the disagreements, but it is futile. We now isolate ourselves because we have built our own combat system and are focusing on strengthening our Empire rather than mixing with another.

Next is for the rulebook debate. We used Amtgard's striking zones, weapons, and class system to start playing a rough version boffer game. We didn't cut and paste Amtgard rulebooks together, and to be honest, we never actually played with a huge emphasis on rules at all, we fought simply to fight. This was the reason for a few of our groups seceding and going to Amtgard. Some people wanted to play a game-based, rule-driven, LARP. While the rest of us chose to create our own relaxed rulebook and combat system which puts an emphasis on combat and not on rules. Because we use boffer swords and a similar striking system, doesn't mean that it was stolen. Every boffer group on the planet uses foam swords and a similar striking system. What Amtgarder's call "copyright infringement" in fact is not. Was "Connect Four" committing a copyright infringement against the game of "Checkers" because it uses the same pieces???

Our Empire is over the entire Amtgard episode and we are very much so to be considered a burgeoning game in its infancy. Our focus has grown more towards a combat-based fighting system that doesn't allow technicalities and heavy rules to weigh down the pace of a battle. We also now produce weaponry, armor, and equipment that carries a clear distinction from those of Amtgard. All myspace pages should have been edited to not include the word Amtgard, as well as all video tags having been removed. Anybody that will like to open a forum with myself concerning anything SME can contact me at [email protected]

Now, I've broken our Isolationism policy just by posting this. Let it be known however, that my goal in this is simply to clear the air and get everybody focused on their own games rather than squabbling about each others. Anybody wishing to know anything may e-mail me.

I'm not sure that the air needs clearing. You guys did use our rule book, edited to your tastes. I have screenshots of your myspace with Jared talking about the yearly amtgard rewrites, and how he was going to change them. But you have formed your own, separate game. Great. Go play it. Stop imagining animosity. --Linden 22:37, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Request for Deletion

Someone from SME named Don Elson asked me to delete this page. I edited it a bit to try to make it clear to anyone reading it they are not amtgard, but because their history intersected with amtgard for a time, I still feel this page should not be deleted.Roger 00:14, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

Roger, I agree, it should remain. User:Tanath 19 May 2008

I agree as well, it should be here, part of our historical record. --Linden 12:16, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

No arguement here, so long as we have HFS and SCA represented for historical purposes as well as cross-game players, so too should SME be listed. --Bowen 13:12, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

I absolutely agree on not deleting this page either. This page is what it is and should not be deleted. It is here for everyone, not just for one person or one group. --User:Casca

A Minor Change

I can't do it myself because the article is locked down, but I was just wondering if some one could delete one of the parks under the heading of Parks. Sosei Bonsai should be moved to former chapters as it renamed itself Tetsu Bonsai and was granted Freehold status in Februray 2008. Also, Red Mangetsu is also a park under SMS and is not in the list. --Dameric

I will list Sosei Bonsai as defunct, but barring some more discussion, I will not directly link it to tetsu bonsai. I believe the SME people wish to limit the implied connection to amtgard. If on the Tetsu Bonsai page people wish to link back to sosei bonsai they are welcome. Red mangetsu is listed as a former chapter, has this changed, or was it incorrect? Thanks for the update. Hannoske 00:04, 1 December 2008 (EST)

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